Date: Wed, 27 Apr 1994 10:22:03 -0700 (PDT)
From: David Robison <robison@nwnet.net>
Subject: Re: Voyages in URCland
To: Terry Allen <terry@ora.com>
In-Reply-To: <199404262250.PAA11970@rock>
Message-Id: <Pine.3.89.9404270941.G28135-0100000@norman.nwnet.net>
Terry et al.,
Thank you for this example. I think what it shows is that library
catalogers have been working on this issue for a while, and have some
sophisticated systems for handling it. All of the records for the example
title below should be given a single uniform title (see titles like
Bible, War and Peace:
Call #: PG3366 .V6 1940 Moffitt
Author: Tolstoy, Leo, graf, 1828-1910.
Uniform title: Voina i mir. English.
Title: War and peace. .
New York, Carlton House [194-].
1146 p. 21 cm.
Unfortunately, not all titles that should have uniform title entries do.
Considering the amount of time and money that goes into cataloging by
thousands of people around the world, it just does not make sense to me
to create a new system for collecting this information. URIs should be
used in library bibliographic records, as many librarians are already
preparing to do, but URCs should not try and replace them.
As library catalogs become Z39.50 savvy (sorry to have to use that term),
the problem will become much simpler on the resource location side. WHile
it is true that libraries are not typically cataloging network resources
now, that is something I see happening in the future with the help of
basic URCs and other URIs. I vote to stick with minimal URCs and leave
the more complex description to catalogers.
David
Disclaimer: I am not a cataloger, I just play one on TV -- seriously, I
am not, but I do have a library degree.
On Tue, 26 Apr 1994, Terry Allen wrote:
> Dirk asks me to post an example I gave that relates to collections
> and multiple publishers. This could be a real Internet example
> as soon as rare book rooms start putting their info online (as
> the Vatican Library has announced it will do with MSS).
>
> This is mostly just for fun, but it does point out that most publishers
> go away after awhile, and one cannot depend on querying them for
> resolving URNs; the following info was assembled by librarians, and
> obtained from Gladis and Melvyl, the UCB and UC system on-line
> library catalogues, along with a physical copy of pt 1 in English,
> which I bought in trade (I sell used books about the Islamic world
> on the side); I've trimmed the bibliographic details from the
> citations.
>
> Jean Chardin was a French jeweller who made several trips
> to Persia, residing at the Safavid court in Isfahan. When
> he retired he wrote up his travels in 4 parts, in French.
>
> First, Moses Pitt, London, published pt 1 in French:
>
> Call #: f DS257.C42 J6 1686 Bancroft
> Author: Chardin, John, Sir, 1643-1713.
> Title: Journal du voyage du chevalier Chardin en Perse & aux
> Indes Orientales, par la Mer Noire & par la Colchide.
> Premiere partie, qui contient le voyage de Paris a
> Ispahan.
> A Londres, Chez Moses Pitt, 1686.
> Contents: 1. pt. Le voyage de Paris a Ispahan.
> No more published in this edition.
>
> Chardin supervised the translation of this volume into English,
> and it was also published by Pitt, and in the same year. (Chardin
> complains in the preface about the defects of the translation,
> typesetting, and engraving of the plates, which he says will
> be engraved all by the same hand in any future edition):
>
> Call #: f DS257.C42 J63 1686 Bancroft
> Author: Chardin, John, Sir, 1643-1713.
> Title: The travels of Sir John Chardin into Persia and the East
> Indies. The first volume, containing the author's
> voyage from Paris to Ispahan. To which is added, The
> coronation of this present king of Persia, Solyman the
> Third.
> London, Printed for M. Pitt, 1686.
> No more published.
>
> The 3 remaining parts were published separately in French
> in Amsterdam in 1711 and in English in London, 1720:
>
> Call #: DS257 .C63 Bancroft
> Author: Chardin, John, Sir, 1643-1713.
> Title: Voyages de monsieur le chevalier Chardin, en Perse, et
> autres lieux de l'Orient ; tome premier[-troisieme] ..
> A Amsterdam : Chez Jean Louis de Lorme, 1711.
> 3 v. : ill. ; 25cm. (4to).
> Contents: t.1. Voyage de Paris a Ispahan, capitale de l'Empire de
> Perse -- t.2. Description generale de l'Empire de
> Perse -- t.3. Description particuliere de la ville
> d'Ispahan, capitale de Perse.
>
> Call #: DS257 .C6 Main Stack
> Author: Chardin, John, Sir, 1643-1713.
> Title: Sir John Chardin's travels in Persia / never before
> translated into English ... [in eight] volumes by Edm.
> Lloyd.
> London : Printed for the author, and sold by J. Smith,
> 1720.
> 2 v. [TA: that is, 8v in 2]
> A translation of parts of v. 3-4 of "Voyages en Perse,"
> Notes: (cont'd) Amsterdam, 1711. Published later as "A new
> collection of voyages and travels" 1721, and "A new
> and accurate description of Persia" 1724.
>
> And, to cut a long story short, the full 4v first appeared as a set
> in English in 1811 (I haven't kept track of the first publication of
> all four parts in French) as part of a collection by Pinkerton:
>
> Call #: x G161 .P65 v.9 Bancroft
> Author: Chardin, John, Sir, 1643-1713.
> Title: The travels of Sir John Chardin, by the way of the Black
> Sea, through the countries of Circassia, Mingrelia,
> the country of the Abcas; Georgia, Armenia, and Media,
> into Persia proper ...
> Contained in: Pinkerton, John, 1758-1826. A general collection of the
> best and most interesting voyages and travels in all
> parts of the world. London, 1808-14. 28 cm. v. 9
> (1811).
>
> And the modern critical edition in English is this:
>
> Call #: DS257 .C5 1927 Moffitt
> DS257.C42 J63 1927 Bancroft
> DS257 .C6 1927 Main Stack
> Author: Chardin, John, Sir, 1643-1713.
> Title: Sir John Chardin's Travels in Persia, with an
> introduction by Brigadier-General Sir Percy Sykes ...
> London, The Argonaut press, 1927.
>
> Now, if I'm a freshman writing a history paper on the French in Iran, I
> might want "any English edition." If I'm a beginning graduate student who
> can read French, I might want "the earliest French edition available within
> 48hrs and below my wallet's pain threshold." If I'm writing a dissertation
> on the subject, I might prefer "the earliest edition of any part in
> the native language of the author."
>
> I might start with a URN identifying any of the works cited above, plus
> about a dozen other editions, down to an abridged French version
> published in Paris in 1965. I ought to be able to use that
> obtain the info I need to match up against my preferences, then
> URNs and URLs, which is pretty much what I did with Gladis and Melvyl.
>
> I don't think much needs to be added to Michael Mealling's list:
>
> >Size
> >Content Type
> >Cost
> >Title
> >Author
> >Version
>
> to which Dirk adds date and language. I think publisher and perhaps
> place may be required (although publisher may be deduced from some
> URNs, other URNs will be assigned by third parties, such as libraries).
>
> I agree with the tenor of the discussion, that a full bibliographic
> record ("something like a MARC record") may not be needed as a practical
> matter for URN>URL resolution, though it seems to me that representing
> it all is a part of the same problem. Is this where various kinds
> of URCs could be useful (URCs for "more meta than you will ever want"
> and URCs for "just enough meta to be useful")?
>
> Or is "more meta than you will ever want" something beyond a URC?
>
>
> --
> Terry Allen (terry@ora.com)
> Editor, Digital Media Group
> O'Reilly & Associates, Inc.
> Sebastopol, Calif., 95472
>